The BODcast - S2: E2
Welcome back to Episode Two of S2 of The BODcast. Today's episode features a guest: Hannah Diviney - you would be forgiven for thinking Hannah’s last name is pronounced divine-ee because she is simply divine.
Not only is Hannah a writer and disability advocate but she's also a global campaigner for a disabled Disney princess and a nominee for 2022 Young Australian of the Year. At twenty two years of age has already become the editor in chief of ‘Missing Perspectives’, an online publication that shares the views and stories of marginalized people and the founder of Krazy Kosci Klimb which you'll hear a little bit more about during the episode .
Join me for a super special chat with Hannah; she’s one of the most amazing people I've connected with online. I can't wait for you to hear everything she has to say.
A: Thank you so much Hannah Diviney for being here; I am so excited to have you as my first S2 guest!
H: Thank you so much for having me, I can’t believe we finally like made this work… I feel like for anyone listening, April and I have a lot of conversations in DM sso it's on us you know to actually record this and have a proper conversation that you guys get to hear too!
A: Yes and to be able to see each other because obviously all of our conversations are in messages so yeah we don't do a lot of, a lot of face to face so to speak - face to screen. Well again, thank you so much I am super pleased to have you on The BODcast and the reason that I wanted you to come on and talk about you and how amazing you are is because I am just in all awe of all of the things that you've achieved… and the fact that this is just the beginning . To me, I just think this is just the start of your star being on the rise … you have already done so much and there is so much yet to come. You’re a writer, a disability advocate - you're the editor in chief at Missing Perspectives; you've been featured by Hello Sunshine which of course we know is a Reese Witherspoon initiative so that's pretty amazing … and you've been nominated for next year's Young Australian of the Year! Is there anything I've missed? OH! Just a worldwide campaign for Disney to bring us a disabled princess - no big deal just a couple of little achievements!
H: Just a tiny one there!
A: Amazing; so did I miss it I miss anything major? What do you think that covers them all?
H: I think that covers everything that I can talk about for now… more stuff coming!
A: Oh okay the NDAs be flyin’ girl…
H: Something like that, something like that.
A: SO Hannah, I would love to hear first of all, the reason that I know who you are is because all of your - your call to Disney to include a princess with disabilities in their princess series. Obviously we know diversity is a major reason that a lot of us end up connecting online because we see people that we go “wow, that person so interesting …they’re talking about such a topic that I don't know enough about” and so when you actually put out your, your call to them through change dot org - what started that? What was… what was the key to unlocking that moment of going I'm going to ask them for this and I'm not gonna stop asking until they do it?
H: Well actually the quests to kind of ask them the question began in twenty fifteen; I went and saw the Pixar film inside out with my family and I remember just sitting there thinking “wow that's a really great job of giving mental health - which is probably not what people think of when they think of kid friendly topics typically - they've done a really good job of making it accessible and nuanced so the kids can understand it but so that it has still plenty of ways for adults to enjoy ,”which is what I find the best animation does is it has plenty of layers for all the up for all the adults and parents watching… and basically after that I wrote them in an open letter that got published online by Mamamia and from there I got a job working for Mamamia but that's another story - we can get to that later! But in terms of this particular round of, I guess conversation, with change dot org. I started because I was noticing that over the course of the pandemic and a bunch of other kind of social movements that coincided with that; there was a lot of really powerful discussion being had about systemic inequalities and discrimination and all of that kind of stuff. And there was a lot of talk at the time about Sia’s new film ‘Music’ and the potential (and for those of you cannot see April is currently shaking her head)
A: making the frustrated face and just wondering “why why why” yes yes yes
H: So basically people are starting to have that conversation because obviously her portrayal of autism is quite harmful and then that was leading to a broader conversation about representation on screen, and kind of the effect of what they call ‘cripping up’ which is basically where an able bodied actor or actress takes on the disabled role and then get something like an Oscar for their trouble. And basically I saw that window and was like right I have this window I’m going to dive through it yeah what happens the other side, yeah … and so we launched the petition on December 3rd, 2020 (which is not coincidentally the International Day of People with Disabilities) – a very strategic choice because we figured is disabled issues got the microphone on days like that and they don't necessarily get that space on an average day.
A: Which is something that we need to change obviously and that's part of the work that you do is %HESITATION obviously wanting to make it a mainstream issue so that we can start to step out of quality and say that on undoing and that breaking down of those systemic inequalities that you mentioned before .I just think it's amazing and you had so much great traction – you had so many people support the petition and I am so proud of how you've continued to build on that. It's really special - and I mean you're very young and
H: I’m only 22!
A: Just like Taylor Swift she’s feeling 22… and who of course… Taylor Swift is very apt to mention as you are a Swifty mega fan – as am I! I’m huge fan of Taylor Swift, especially in the last probably three to five years …and I just think you have achieved so much. So, on that I think we know that you worked with Mamamia, you've written for them, the petition, and now Missing Perspectives - can we talk a little bit about Missing Perspectives?
H: We certainly can; Missing Perspectives is I guess in the scheme of things still pretty brand new baby - we only launched in June of this year. We were founded by a friend of mine Phoebe Saintilan who was basically doing some work and came across this report by the Gates Foundation that showed that women were feeling extremely underrepresented in like news, media, policy, decision-making… all of that stuff… and so she decided to do something about it. Originally I was only supposed to be contacted as a writer, because her mom had actually taught me in primary school I kept tabs on me
A: Because teacher are amazing and we love teachers
H: Teachers are amazing and need more money and support for anyone listening who has the power to pay teachers more!
A: That is a very not subtle hints for you to support teachers better whoever's listening yep
H: and then we got talking because she was like “I don't have any editorial experience I don't know what I'm doing” and I was like, “I have a little bit ,” - like I’ve sort of absorbed different stuff from … I've been reading lots of different publications, working, the whole having kind of a decent freelancing career and seeing how different people do things and sort of cherry-picking things I like about what they do ,in making sure to stay away from things that I don’t like necessarily that they do, and yeah we've sort of built from the ground up.
I know you mentioned before the Reese Witherspoon/Hello Sunshine collaboration which is amazing - that happened last week so we've definitely had some growth so I think, in terms of our visibility … but yeah we have writers from over forty countries and an audience of hundreds
A: Amazing and like you know to me I think the Missing Perspectives that will now be able to be covered in those places and sharing your perspectives … the perspectives of the people that you platform through that publication… I just think that's wonderful. So …. nominated for young Australian of the year how much of a surprise was that?
H: You could have knocked me over … I mean to be fair, I have no balance so knocking me over is not that difficult … and that's all right, you can laugh at that because it's true.
A: (laughing) My gosh you have the most impeccable sense of timing - like you really are one of the funniest people - oh my goodness
H: but in terms of like expecting that, that was not something that I thought would happen … it was said in jest to me - well I thought it was in jest but it turns out that they were deadly serious… at the end of this event that I do called the Krazy Kosci Klimb which I co founded which basically sees people with cerebral palsy and their families climb Mt Kosciusko - which for anyone who doesn't know it is a strategy is highest point and as a result of that officially one of the seven summits of the world - which is definitely not something I think most people would imagine within the scope of the disabled person's capability … so that's kind of the whole point. But basically we just wrapped that in February earlier this year, we do it in February every year, and I had given this speech: and a bunch of people coming up to me congratulating me on the speeches and how good they thought it was and how much I love the event and one of our kind of key sponsors whose very well connected individual came up to me and said “I think that's young Australian of the Year material right there” and I I just laughed him off, because what else are you supposed to do? But it's also that impostor syndrome, pesky thing, like no, that's not that's not for me, that space.
And then it was one of those things where I kind of assumed that it was a comment that was well intentioned but that like no action would come from it - just one of those things that people say in the moment that they definitely mean but just life gets in the way…
A: That there was not a lot of action behind those words, you didn't think that that was something was gonna happen?
H: Just because I I had no idea what the process looked like; I I didn't know anything about it … and then a couple weeks later I got I got a call that was like “No, I was serious about nominating you - how do we go about doing this, let's do it.” So we did and we’re obviously still waiting to see what happens… I think state finalists for each award announced like this month or early November… so we'll see if I made it that far but yeah, it just blows me away because I definitely wasn't expecting that sort of thing.
The other thing is that I was initially really hesitant to take it because I was like I'm not really in it for like personal glory your gratification or any of that stuff so back up I don't know that I really want all that attention, like that's not really me… I’m very much, I'm a private person and then I think you know, what Grace Tame has done with her Australian of the Year portfolio this year and try and looking at the ways in which she has made the conversation not about her, but at the broader issue at hand - when I kind of sat there and thought this could be a really powerful moment for disability issues, for disability representation, but I I would end up just being the messenger, it doesn't have to be about me - then I was like okay we can we can give this a go
A: I'm so happy that you did and I completely agree; look, I personally quite like attention so I would be fine with being offered an award of any sort (laughs) but I I appreciate - I think that such an indication of who you are, who you come across to be - to me - is someone who's really doing this because you genuinely want to change the world … not because you like a pat on the back, it's not because you want to you know everyone to talk about how great you are (even though you are great) but this for you is a cause that you want to champion you don't necessarily have the face of it you set you just simply want to uplift other people and you want to get these messages that with I can be heard by people who can actually make the change … and therefore be someone who makes the change.
H: And I think I was explaining this to someone the other day, I said: everything that I do is in service of the idea that I wanted to be better for whoever comes after to me
A: You’re just amazing, I just adore you.
H: I grew up not having really any sort of role models or even an idea of like what disabled adulthood could look like … literally I was just like I have no idea what the future could look like and it was quite a blank page … not necessarily that it's filled with possibilities, but in the literal fact that I don't know what goes here … because I've never seen it before … and I know that I don't want to be a Paralympian, for reasons that … I guess is nothing specific that means that I don’t want to be a Paralympian… I just always chafed against the idea that that was the only path of success for me, because I grew up the oldest of three girls, two younger sisters who are both obviously able bodied and fiercely sporty and very physically active (which is a whole other thing to grow up with) but basically I would look at them and be like well hold on, you're not assuming that they want to be Olympians, you're not asking them what their Olympic sport is going to be… because number one you understand that only the elite of the elite get to the Olympics, and number two you understand that not everybody wants to get there … so why should I and also what happens if I don't?
I think it was during that SBS special ‘what does Australia really think about disability’ that Kurt Fearnley was talking about the gap between the respect that he gets as a Paralympian, verses the gap the other people with disabilities, the same respect that they get… which brings us to all sorts of narratives about like the whole overcoming your disability idea, which is just toxic and really painful - because I guess it's like saying I'm going to overcome my eye colour… you can't change it. So everything that I achieve is always going to be with my disability firmly in hand I think as much as I didn't want to be when I was a kid, I I hated being disabled, yeah, which means essentially that I hated myself.
And like the level of I guess damage that can be baked into you when you don’t get the right representation or when the representation that you see ends up being harmful, is really dangerous and that's the reason why I guess the Disney campaign is so important to me - because I'm like well, if we can start at that age - and if we can start making it normal from there, then hopefully kids don’t have to grow up feeling that way … and on the flip side it makes able bodied kids who are watching, it means that they're already starting on the path to being allies, because it's not scary.
A: it's become a conversation you know I like, I suppose where we feel more comfortable because we've been so privileged to be given all of this free education in a lot of cases from people like yourself, Carly Findlay, Kurt Fearnley, Dylan Alcott; people who are public speakers who talk about disability and how it has affected their lives but also how we as allies who are not part of disability community can really help… aside from the obvious moments of being able to say hi being ableist is not cold which you know is the bare minimum… but you know I think that that privilege that we've had to learn from all of you means people like me - you know, I have a child - have conversations that I feel comfortable talking about … OK yes, you know this person in a wheelchair, some people use wheelchairs and some people don’t… I mean, I don't kind of dig too deep into, it it's just about saying yeah some people have wheelchairs, we don't need to make a big deal out of it for that person, that person doesn't need us to you know how the whole story around what they're doing … just understand yep some people do and some people don’t.
We had a great chat yesterday about the noise of the traffic lights, like than the beeping when you go to cross … my my child said “why is it making a noise? what's that noise?”
I said “Oh it's for the light, you know how when we see the green man, we know we're allowed to cross… well if we couldn't see that, we would still have to know when to cross.” He goes, “yeah well some people don't have any eyes,” and I said “well that's right” and he said yes and then we kept walking; it really didn't have to be a big deal.
H: You’re raising a good ally there.
A: I'm doing my best, 100%
H: and that's one of the things that I always turn to people because like I have always, since I was a kid attracted the stares of other kids, and my mom has always taught me that it's really important for me to engage them as much as I can. Now that works sometimes, but sometimes, parents are really embarrassed or they go “Oh no, we don't have to talk about that” or they reprimand the kids for staring at me, for coming over, all that kind of stuff.
I'm like I would just prefer that you come and ask me the question like yes I know that it's emotional labour on me and you don't want to bug me, but really if I can just make it that little bit easier, all that little bit less strange so the next time I happens maybe your son or daughter reacts differently I think I think that's good …
A: And I appreciate that acknowledgement of you saying I know it's emotional labour - because there are going to be people who are not open to that, and that is so okay. Just as if someone came up and said to me “why are you fat” or “why is your hair green?” because that is the most common question I get when I talk to some child I've never met before it’s “Why is your hair green?” and I just say “why not?”
I think your willingness is something that I really admire about you, but I think also … if you were to say “I don't want to have to have this conversation today, I'm exhausted” because that is the reality ,that sometimes you just feel like I’ve said this four hundred times and it's only Wednesday, that you are allowed to say that too … and I think people need to really try hard to gauge when it's the right moment to say maybe you should ask Hannah why she's in a wheelchair, because the you’d say, well this is why, or say “I use it to get around,” and hopefully they could realize that that's the end of the conversation, thank you goodbye.
H: Generally with kids I always try to have that openness because I'm like well they don't know, they don't know that I've been asked that question four hundred times, or they don't know that I got really sad because it frustrated me that I couldn't get out of bed by myself this morning or whatever it was … so with them I always try to be open.
Sometimes you get adults who are a little bit invasive, and that's a bit like “guys please don’t, just let me do this, let me do my thing.”
It doesn't necessarily come out in the form of a question like it'll be like this used to happen quite regularly with when I was traveling to and from Uni, because I still technically am at uni for a couple weeks, then I’ve finished my degree; but I've done two years of it online and two years traveling back and forth to Wollongong, which means taking the train and the bus, so dealing with public transport - you're dealing with a huge cross section of the population, and they would ask me where I come from or what I was doing and I would say just come back from Uni, I'm just going to Uni, and for a split second to be able to see the brain have to completely sort of recalibrate their idea of me …
A: yeah because the answer that they were expecting, because they’d made up a story about you in their head?
H: yeah or some people will automatically assume like all you've come from TAFE right? No, I'm doing a double degree at Uni
A: And look I went to TAFE, and loved it but there was no reason for anyone to make that assumption, there’s no reason. It’s all biases whether there's subconscious or unconscious, you know they’re all biases and the things that you compete against every day because people are telling themselves stories about strangers
H: yes and I guess like this other biases which would obviously be that TAFE is still seen somewhat as a like lesser form of education, when in reality it's not … we all need people with those skills to help us get through our lives and I think one thing I hope the pandemic teaches people is maybe not take people for granted so much.
A: The value of front line workers and people who do jobs that have not always been considered to have the same prestige is something like a lawyer, or a doctor - we know doctors haven’t been treated all that well… I totally agree, I do think that there is probably a bias around what education has value and prestige and I think that's another thing – in the past I have talked about intersectionality … that's one of those things that we think people who learn in an educational institution that's not necessarily surrounded by accolades don’t learn things that are not as important as other people, in a different environment
H: And potentially, some might say in a more open environment - because typically our institutions our surrounded by people who generally look the same.
A: We've seen recently in the news conversations around certain educational institutions, and the types of people who leave those institutions who go on to not necessarily be the people that we want in our lives. I do think that we need to make space in our own minds to the possibility that nobody is what you're expecting them to be because the only experience that you might have someone is that first impression and so you need to allow that person to make their impression before you decide who they are and what they're about.
H: Definitely.
A: I know you're also someone who works quite closely with the CPA, Cerebral Palsy Alliance… an organisation I hold in high esteem not only for the work that they do but because I have a couple of friends who also benefit from the work that they do … and yeah I is there anything, you know, in terms of the work that you've done with them - is there anything that you’ve seen as you've done that that's really like warmed your heart? Have you seen any moments in your work with CPA that you got to go this is why I do what I do?
H: I was very lucky to get to hold a Instagram Q&A for them on world CP day which is the 6th of October and that would basically just answering people's questions about CP and just like busting common myths and all that kind of stuff… but I got some lovely DMs that were sort of along the lines of “we're really glad that our son or daughter with CP, our friend or whatever has someone like you to look up to, we are really happy that like our able-bodied kids will get to see what you do.”
I'm also really fortunate that CPA has given me a monthly column in which I get to essentially be the adult that I never got to see for other kids coming here which is like I said exactly the reason why do everything that I do… getting the opportunity to really exist in those spaces and hear from the people who know what my life looks like that they appreciate what I'm doing .That's kind of the greatest form of compliment that I could ever get really.
A: It’s really wonderful and I think you spoke before about feeling like adulthood was a bit of a blank page for you, and so now you get to fill in that page with a little bit of your experience - something for them to go oh, I turned the page, there's something to know, what I can do and where I could land as far as chasing dreams and believing that you can do whatever it is that you want to do … in your case what you want to do is make the world a better place.
H: I definitely think like we need disabled representation in every arena - so many disabled lawyers, we need disabled teachers, disabled doctors - we need disabled people who work at the supermarket … we need representation in every arena and every level so that when disabled kids are kind of coming through they can choose whatever they want.
I’m lucky and particularly fortunate that my skill is in writing which means that I get to put my words out to a bigger audience … and I'm sort of developing something of a public profile, but I also want to make sure that like the kids coming up and kind of other disabled people who are really unsure about what the future might hold, know that they don't necessarily have to step in to having a public profile or being a public advocate in order for them to be successful either… because I think public advocacy is a choice and it's not something that we expect of everybody … sometimes it's just enough that you advocate for yourself and you get through the day and you do what you have to do; and to be honest there was a time where I definitely thought that being a public advocate was not for me because I was struggling so much to keep my head above water that I was not gonna worry about anyone else… it's just like ‘all I can think about is getting through each day’ and then sort of as I got older I realized the literal privilege of like having a voice – and by this I mean the physical act of being able to speak, and articulate myself, and be understood - is privilege because for anyone who doesn't know, cerebral palsy basically exists on a spectrum, where at one end you have people who are only affected on one side so that might work a little bit lopsided, you might have a claw hand ,they might get fatigue or that kinf of stuff … and then right at the other end you have people who essentially all they can do for themselves independently is breathe and swallow.
I am very fortunate to sit in the middle of the spectrum; that wasn't necessarily going to be the case, in fact when I was born the doctors told my parents worst case scenario that I would never walk talk or feed myself … so the fact that I do have a voice, and that I can be understood, is definitely not something I take for granted… because it quite honestly wasn't supposed to happen so now I feel, well if I've been lucky enough to for whatever reason have that not be the case then I've got a responsibility to use it, you know?
A: I think I'm one of those people and maybe this sounds woo woo but I'm okay with that … I honestly believe that there is a reason for that, as the people who follow you and listen to what you have to say, we are the lucky ones who get to hear your thoughts and have you articulate this message that you have for us, so beautifully, and in a way that is so easy for us to go ‘okay that makes so much sense, thank you’ - I really do think that you are very special individual and I think your choice to be a public advocate, when you're quite right, it would be perfectly reasonable for you to simply say I choose me - I choose to take care of myself - choose to use the voice that I have to speak for myself so that I'm able to be treated the way that I want to be treated… your choice to do more is something that's really powerful and something that shouldn't be understated; because it's not easy and we both know that it can be hard to spend a lot of time creating content and sharing what can be trauma to help people understand what it is to live your life, to be in your shoes … I really think that that's something that we I can't understate - how grateful I am that I connected with you.
H: well that makes two of us - I am extremely grateful that I connected with you because I think the work that you do in making people feel more comfortable in their own skin and more comfortable with their bodies and even like not necessarily having your body be a topic of conversation is really important…I've certainly taken a lot out of it because I struggled a lot with body image and like my relationship to my body, especially in the context of like what it's supposed to look like or what it's supposed to do, ways that I operate differently to all the girls in the magazines or on the billboards.
A: I want you to be one of those girls Hannah … that's what I want. One thing, you know and I think I said this about the campaign that I did with Curvy Swim ‘Beach Please’ wasn't just about the idea of people who have fat bodies being comfortable … it's about everybody and I think me being the first fat bikini model on a nillboard in Australia is just one thing that we need to do and one thing that mainstream media needs to show us… we've got to keep working to diversify, genuinely diversify, media and the images of bodies and people who we see and who are championed and I think that yes, I see that in your future - I do.
H: I hope I hope you're right there, I hope it gets to that stage because I would love to see it and I think as well. Carly Findlay does a great job talking about this - there's a lot of room in mainstream media where “disfigurement”, all of the forms of disability that affects how you look are used as symbols of evil … like if we look at say this new James Bond film is going to be the biggest one that everyone's talking about. If you look at the history of Bond villains, most of them have some “deformity “or facial difference or something along those lines that is meant to be used as a symbol to the audience that they are the bad guy.
A: Or like the six fingered man in Princess Bride or Anne Hathaway’s digitally altered hands in The Witches … it's not even subtle… between that and I think you know the the other signalling around on you know whether it's queer villains ,and things like that… we have so far to go in terms of how we show audiences, especially children who the bad guy is …
I think the fact that The Witches came out and there was such a huge outcry and support for the message that this was a far cry from what was the right choice from that studio … that's marvellous, because twenty years ago nobody would have said anything… people would have spoken about it in their lives and circles… but a public message condemning to the point where Anne Hathaway had to be like holy shit I've made a terrible mistake, you know I I think that's so… that's so powerful. But again, the bare minimum - because it should never have happened. Somebody in that room should have been able to go “I don't think we should give her these, you know these differences, the physical differences to signal that she's the ultimate evil… but the fact that that was not present in the room is where you come in because yes you are making a place for people to have powerful voices both online and as part of the media more broadly - and for those opportunities to be in the room - to happen.
H: I think I gave a similar quote, I guess, in an interview that I did recently with POPSUGAR (not to name drop but that was pretty cool) I said something along the lines of “the people who are in power now have seen no reason to change things because it suits them”, so like if we want things to change, the people at the top and the people who have the power to make the decisions have to change too… because clearly they're not the ones we want making decisions about those kind of things because they haven't seen the gaps where we see them.
A: I think the reason for change has to be you wanting it, and it must come from a want to just have a better world because you can't simply say ‘well if it doesn't affect me then I don't need to work for it’ that's what allyship is, choosing to work for a cause that doesn't actually affect you… that's what allyship needs to be about… making yourself uncomfortable whether that be, you know, opportunities being given to people who haven't had those chances - and yeah, that maybe means that you don't get as many opportunities … not everything is finite, some things are and I think the ability to choose a better world and a better experience for young people over yourself? That’s allyship – in part.
H: I think there will be some people who react to that kind of sentiment and go oh this better world is so much more politically correct, the better world is going too far, the better world … why can we just leave it, no one had a problem.. like why is everyone so sensitive all of a sudden? It's like well actually they've been sensitive the whole time… they just now have the means to express it in a place where you are more likely to hear.
A: Are we sensitive or you insensitive? That's the real question.
H: I definitely think one thing that is there anyone who creates content online knows, people are always going to agree with you … you're going to get people in the DMs who hate what you're doing, who are very much against it - who think you’re being too much, asking too much … and I always try and take that as a sort of compliment because this is my work is actually moved beyond the echo chamber of people who would tell me I was doing a good job regardless of what I was doing…
Obviously my family is not going to like pander to me, but there's a level of like… they're always going to support what I do … so if I'm getting feedback from strangers that they don't like it, that means it's moved to strangers, if that makes sense.
A: They are being exposed to the message and you know, if we hope that a fraction of the strangers instead of hearing and disagreeing with it, hear it and sit with it, get uncomfortable with themselves, without having to come into your DMs then that is a positive change .
I want to thank you so much again for coming on The BODcast, it is it's been my absolute pleasure to talk with you … and I just want to know, is there anything that you would like to share with the people who are hopefully listening to this episode?
H: Well, first of all I think if you listen to the BODcast, you're a pretty awesome human - that shows that you care and that you want to learn, and hopefully I taught you something and hopefully there's more places for me to teach you things … like come say hi on social media… support my projects… check out Missing Perspectives, sign the Disney petition… keep your eyes out for some cool stuff coming soon …
A: Because that's just what you do, just keep doing cool things! I am going to put the links to all of the important places like Hannah’s Instagram and to the Missing Perspectives website and the petition in the show notes - you can also come find me on Instagram where you will always find me sharing things from Hannah, so no worries, you will definitely find us.
Once again Hannah Diviney, thank you so much for being my first series to a guest on the BODcast.
